Daily Agitator
The US economy is in sad shape (unless you are one of the Wall St. gamblers that is protected by the US government) and the debate on spending and the deficit rages on and on and on…….you and I have heard all the excuses and those to blame…..some I believe, some you do……but there comes a time when the affixing of blame on a part of society is just plain STUPID!
I know…what are you going on about, Professor? Glad you asked!
In the past my posts on social security has gotten amazing response (wish all my posts were as fortunate) and I am waiting to see if this one generates as much debate and exchange as the others…I look forward to hearing what my readers have to say….so dive in! (BTW, check it out…the Social Security Fund has a $2.0+ trillion surplus secured by the US government)
I apologize to my conservative readers, I in NO way are one of those hating Lefties, but some of the stances of the GOP has a bit of an elitist air to it……
It appears that us “boomers” (yes, I am an old fart) are the problem with the ever expanding deficit…..since we are at or approaching retirement…our leisure will drain the SS fund and our Medicare will do the same….but who’s fault is that?
Surely you cannot blame the person that has worked hard their whole life for wanting to enjoy their final years? So, the best answer is to make these people work longer or die sooner…..why? Why should these people be made to suffer for something that is NOT their fault or their doing?
Let see….the best answers we have for the lessening of the deficit is make working stiffs work longer and possibly harder and to give tax cuts to the wealthy….is that about it? That is the best you can do for American working families? We are in a serious conflict, my friends!
Yes, well – that’s one of the (many) places I disagree with most governemtns and a whole lot of people – no surprise there…
State pension is NOT social security or welfare or whatever else you term it! In the UK and I think it’s similar in the US it is an OBLIGATORY pension scheme (fund) into which all working people have paid. Looked at in THAT light, it makes perfect economic sense for any reasonably wealthy country to do that since it means that your older and less than wealthy citizens should be able to maintain a certain basic level of living standard WITHOUT resorting to SS and welfare! It’s dignified and simple and PROPERLY organised and managed like any other pension fund, it would be fine.
The REAL problem is that it is a Ponzi scheme and NOT a properly managed pension fund and THERE lies the blame – it is with governments – ALL governments who have systematically taken the money (by force) and have then used it for other things instead of investing it for the future and for the purpose for which it was paid (albeit often unwillingly).
The requirements for the pension system are known at ANY point in time, now or in the future (after allowing for projected inflation and financial growth of the country). Why is it some kind of surprise when it peaks? The reason is simple – it is because the money has NOT been put aside properly and invested – it has been treated as part of the overall SS contibution (or in other words just another tax to be wasted) and it is straightforward THEFT!
Sue the goverment bastards! ALL of ’em!
This is where we agree….the fund would have enough cash in it for many years to come if the bureaucrats and the politicians would have left it alone….but no they had to tinker with it to pay for this piece of crap legislation or that war or….well pick something that they have wasted money on and it will probably be SS money that did it…
I say we limit Social Security payments to what a person actually paid into the system while working. 🙂
Right now it is just a welfare prorgam based on an elaborate government-created ponzi scheme.
I disagree….it is NOT a welfare program…..people have paid their hard earn money into it and now people want them to pay thye ultimate price….to die and let the government keep the cash……why else would the pigs want to keep upping the retirement age…eventually it will be high enough that most people cannot retire….good plan!
It IS a welfare program, because ultimately the poorest recipients receive far more than they ever put in (especially considering our life expectancy is much longer than it was when Social Security was put into effect.)
Also, the money has been spent, as you guys previously noted. So, the people paying INTO the pot TODAY, are, in effect, paying for the SS checks that are issued and spent TODAY.
Yes, I know money is fungible. But since the previous money paid was spent on government spending at the time, the government has, in essence, been simply expanding the welfare state ever since the New Deal.
It is NOT a welfare program….for that implies that people get something for nothing….that is BS! I have paid into it since I was 16 yrs old and now I am an old fart…that is MY money in there with my name on it….I get a paper every yeasr from SS telling me how much I have and how much I can get if I retire…like a bank statement…
Lobo, the money was spent long ago.
Regardless of what a paper says, is it not true that many people are eligible to receive far more than they ever put in? Beyond what interest would have been paying?
Yes the money was spent long ago….but NOT on what it was intended to be used for…that is the governments fault..not the people that have worked hard and paid into the system…..people are being scapegoated that do not deserve the accusations…..
Yes, people have been used by their government. Yes, there money was spent on things it was not supposed to be spent on. Yes, it is wrong and immoral of our government to have done such a thing.
But that doesn’t change the fact that Social Security has evolved into a sophisticated ponzi-scheme welfare program.
That’s why I wish they’d just phase the SS program out…completely. Speaking only for myself, I would gladly forfeit the money I’ve paid in so far so that my children would not be strapped with this awful program later.
We need to phase this program out, perhaps refunding people their money as well.
Good sentiment…but now is NOT the time to do as you suggest….with the economy as is….you would be condemning millions to death…and that WOULD be a death panel that so many have been screaming about…..
Oh lordy, lobo, that is so melodramatic.
Phasing the program out is not going to condemn millions to death.
Abruptly ending the program might put millions of elderly into extreme hardship, but then again, they could just go on welfare, food stamps, low-income housing, and Medicaid like every other poor non-elderly person in this country.
No more death than the silly crap during health debate…but that is different….
But if you are correct thenm we have just added even more people to the roles of welfare and the disdain of many….njot a very good plan….
I call red herring, lobo. 🙂
And we would simply be shifting some people from one government spending and wealth redistribution program to another.
But I don’t think all the elderly who collect Social Security would qualify for welfare benefits…especially those who have retirement accounts and family members who help care for them.
But the point of this would be for future generations: one less tax collected and one more incentive to save for retirement.
Funny when it is the elderly and the poor it is called wealth distribution and when it is the rich it is called the price of doing business…..
I’m not sure what you mean by that, lobo. Are you talking about corporate welfare or something else?
Are the rich forcibly taking someone’s wealth at the end of a gun? Is the IRS giving the rich more in tax refunds than what they pay in income and capital gains taxes? Are there some special government spending programs that the rich actually qualify for that I don’t know about?
Yes they are…the 2008 bailout was such a thing. And the loopholes that only certain people can get. There are many programs that few people know about….
Try this…
http://bigtentrevue.org/2010/09/08/liberaltarians-safety-nets-and-the-gop/#more-4109
Lobo, the average rich person didn’t benefit from the bailouts. The average rich person lost massive amounts of wealth from plunging stock and housing prices.
If you’re talking about the government’s bail-out for companies too big to fail (what a crock that is), then sure…I can see that as wealth redistribution…big time. That’s why I thought it was an immoral thing from the very beginning.
And I didn’t see any specific programs mentioned in that link you provided.
Sorry I disagree……if they were employed by the financial services then they made out like a bandit…
Not the folks who lost their jobs when their banks failed.
But most “rich folks” aren’t employed by financial services. Most of them own their own businesses.
I believe it was in the WSJ….about one million people are employed in the industry and 90% or so of them got bonuses above their salaries in the past year……
We can pick at this scab all you like but the thinking will be the same….all I am saying is that ALL people pay the same in taxes (the same percentage).
I’d like to see that statistic in whatever article it was posted in. 🙂
All people don’t pay the same percentage in taxes…or is that what you are advocating?